Noomii Fire Side Chat Ep 1: Solutions To Toxic Leadership With Jathan Janove

Stephan:

Hi, my name is Stephan Wiedner. I’m the CEO of Noomii.com and we are all about unleashing the collective potential of individuals, teams, and organizations, so that we can solve the biggest problems in this world. Today I’m excited to have my special guest, Jathan Janov to chat with.

What we’re going to be talking today is about toxic leadership and specifically your background. Jathan, having been a lawyer and now you’re working with a lot of the same individuals, I would say that maybe we can characterize them as toxic, but I would say they’re all strong-willed, super intelligent, and guess what? Sometimes they’re abrasive. And these are the types of people you work with. I think your skillset is really unique. I’ve probably talked to a thousand coaches, we’ve worked with hundreds of coaches over the years, and you bring a very unique angle, a very unique perspective to this specific challenge. And for those who are listening here today, you likely have a toxic leader in your organization, you’re probably wondering, “How do I deal with this?” Well, this is an individual who will be able to speak to that. So first of all, Jathan, why don’t you tell us a little bit about your background and how you got into doing this work?

 

Jathan:

Okay. Yeah, sure. Well, I’ll start with my former career. For 25 years I was a labor and employment law attorney, and most of that time I represented employers. During that period, I encountered and dealt with numerous incidents of harassment, sexual harassment, racial harassment, bullying, even violence, threats of violence, all sorts of misbehavior in the workplace. And so, I litigated each case, I tried these cases. I also did a lot of advising of employers on how to deal with it. I conducted high-end investigations, I taught investigations and, so I had a whole bunch of intersections with toxic relationships, toxic workplaces, toxic behavior.

 

Stephan:

And now you’re no longer a lawyer; you’re not a practicing lawyer so you do not give any legal advice. But you do coaching, so how did you get into that?

 

Jathan:

Yes, I’m proud to say I’m a recovering lawyer. What happened was, over time I felt that all I was doing was treating symptoms, not causes and because, okay, there would be a specific problem with a specific individual or individuals, and I’d come in, some kind of intervention, but nothing meaningful changed. Maybe the immediate problem was solved, but the underlying causes in it: The problematic leadership in the organization, the overall unhealthiness of the culture, the unwillingness to really do the kind of interventions that can turn a problem bully into a good person, that kind of investment wasn’t being made. And so as a result I’d get a call again, and two years later or a year later, “Here’s another problem.” And so I really wanted to shift to how do you create a healthy culture? How do you intervene in a way that you could have a lasting solution as opposed to just putting out an immediate fire? And so that took me into the world of organization development, consulting and executive coaching.

 

Stephan:

And from that you have this underlying belief that… Or you must have, that people can change, that behavior change is possible for perhaps even the most abrasive leaders? I’m assuming that’s true, right? You believe that to be true?

 

Jathan:

I would say it’s more than a belief. I would say empirically, from my experience, I know it’s true. I’m not going to say it’s always true, but I know for a fact that there are people who were perceived as bullies, as bigots, as harassers, as sexist, as fill in the blank, that had a behavioral conversion that stuck. I can also tell you, there’s plenty of counterexamples to that, but I know for a fact that of this class of problematic people, there’s a subclass of that, that is with the right approach and the right timing and the right this and that, can change and not just change to, “Wait till it’s quiet, wait till the police go away and then I can go back and misbehave.” I mean, change in a fundamental way. I’ve just experienced it too many times to say it’s not a belief for me; it’s a fact for me.

 

Stephan:

So what do you think are the key ingredients then for making that behavior change in the first place, and then secondly, making it stick? What’s the formula there?

 

Jathan:

Well, my typical advice for an employer that’s in that situation with the… Somebody who’s a toxic leader who otherwise brings value. Okay. So first things first. Okay. There’s a toxic leader. Is he otherwise a good leader? I mean, should he be there anyway? Sometimes the answer is, “No they shouldn’t.” Then it’s simple; fire him. But let’s say the client or the employer says, “This person’s our top sales person,” or, “This person has great contacts. This person treats our customers like gold; it’s the employees he’s abusive to,” or whatever it is.

 

Jathan:

So the employer would like to try an intervention short of termination. So that’s the first thing. But what I say in that case is, you’ve got to be very clear. And what you need to tell that leader is, “We’re at a crossroads. There’s two paths, okay? There’s no third path. Because the status quo isn’t going to continue.” So path one is, we say, “This isn’t the place for you. There’s not a fit with our cultural values and our behavioral expectations. You need to move on.” Or we try an intervention, that’s with a goal of creating lasting, sustained meaningful change as perceived by others. And then that leader makes the decision, “Which path do you choose?”

 

Jathan:

The key thing though for the employer is, don’t slide into the third one, which is the sloppy toxic status quo. Don’t let the person off the hook. It’s an either/or. There’s no other alternatives; either/or. And that at least creates an opportunity for me as a prospective coach to have a candid conversation with that leader, and potentially to have the leverage where meaningful change could occur.

 

Stephan:

So that’s the starting point. Now you said this needs to be communicated. Who needs to communicate that to the leader? Do you think that needs to be the organization or is that your job?

 

Jathan:

The organization.

 

Stephan:

And who in the organization ideally?

 

Jathan:

Well, it would be the CEO, or if the CEO is the problem it would be the Chairman of the Board or the owner.

 

Stephan:

So what I’m hearing, it’s someone with authority. So it can’t be a colleague, probably not the HR

manager unless they’re the direct supervisor of this individual?

 

Jathan:

Yeah. There needs to be leverage, okay? Without leverage… In rare instances, I’ve been able to work an intervention where I didn’t have the leverage, where essentially the client, the employer, the organization said, “Jathan, if this person leaves, we fold our tent. Unfortunately this jerk is necessary to our survival and we’re not ready to pull the plug on our entire organization. Can’t afford it. Maybe we can build to that point, and at some point be able to grow out of where we can get rid of the jerk, but for now everybody loses in the organization.” So in those cases, because I don’t have leverage now, my only shot is to have a conversation with that person and say, “What bugs you about people? What bugs you about the employees that of course complained about this person?”

 

Jathan:

And sometimes what’ll happen is that the toxic leader will describe frustrations, disappointments, people letting him down or letting her down, or frustrating them. Getting in the way of their goals, preventing them, because a lot of these people are driven and they’re result-oriented. And so if we can get a dialogue going, then I can sometimes say, “Well, what if? What if you worked with me, tried some new things outside your comfort zone, and you got more of what you want?” Okay? What if? And then if that continues, you say, “Well, how about we try and experiment? Now let’s be clear. For the time period of this experiment, you’re going to have to make some radical changes in your behavior, but we will closely study the results. We’ll measure the results. And if you’re not getting those results then you tell me to take a hike, and you go back to the way you’ve been that’s made you in your mind the success that you are. So all we’re going to do is do an experiment.”

 

Jathan:

Now that is something I use even in the first category, which is where I have leverage. So in other words,they’ve been sent to me, where’s the principal’s office, right? And they’ve got to work with me because they want to keep their job, all right? They don’t want to lose their stock options. All right, fine. I still give them that talk and say, “You know what? If this is successful, guess what? You’re not just going to keep your job. You’re going to have one of those amazing moments. And by the way,” I’ll say, “Do you have family, spouse, kids, whatever? I’ll make a bet with you. If this is successful in the workplace, you’re going to be reporting some real positive results at home. And if you’re involved in your church or whatever it is, you’re going to see it there too. So my preference is always to have that leverage because it makes that conversation a lot easier. But if the client says, “I can’t do it, not now,” I’m willing to go in, but if the person then blows me off and says, “The hell with you,” then it’s like, “Okay.” Client’s got to make a decision. So that’s why I come back to people that… Other people tend to think they are incorrigible and often aren’t, because that misbehavior is a function of some need that isn’t being met. And if we can get to that need or that need behind the need, we’ve got a shot, we’ve got a chance.

 

Stephan:

So what I’m hearing Jathan, is first of all what works is giving them the two paths, right? “You got path A, path B, you choose.” So in a way you’ve got the leverage, which might feel like an ultimatum, but it’s also giving them the choice. Correct?

 

Jathan:

Absolutely.

 

Stephan:

And then secondly, you’re presenting it as an experiment to try new behavior to get ultimately what they want. So it needs to be in their best interest. So this isn’t, “Hey, you’re not looking out for the organization. You’re not looking out for the people that represent that organization. You’re representing them.” You’re saying, “Look, this could be better for you, because if you’re complaining about these people in these certain ways, there’s something we can do about that. And that would make your life better, wouldn’t it?”

 

Jathan:

Yes. Right.

 

Stephan:

Okay. That’s really, really good. And I think that’s one of the challenges. What we see with clients is they haven’t had that conversation with that leader. There’s conversations happening behind that leader, they’re plotting strategies and trying to figure out how we handle the behaviors that we’re seeing? And they are very apprehensive to have that conversation around, “You know what, there are two paths that you’re going to take. By the way, the third path of status quo ain’t an option.” They’re afraid to make that declaration, and I think part of it is for fear of losing that person or for fear of making it sound like an ultimatum. But what I’m hearing from you is you need to make it. You need to give them that ultimatum, but present it as a choice, “You have choice A or B. You choose.”

 

Jathan:

Yes. It’s always presented as a choice.

 

Stephan:

Now, I think there’s another truism about why this work works, why you’ve been successful as an executive coach. And it’s certain qualities of these leaders; you mentioned that they’re driven, they’re motivated. That works in your favor, true?

 

Jathan:

Yes, absolutely. I mean, that’s the thing. You find their pain point, which is, some human being is getting in the way of their goals, because they’re not smart enough, or they’re not wise enough, or they’re not working hard enough, or they’re not dependable enough, or they’re not this enough or that enough. And I refer to it as the Mama Grizzly factor. Okay? You’re out for that little nature hike in the woods and encounter these adorable bear cubs, but you’re not enjoying it, right? Because what’s going on in your head? “Where’s Mama.” And if Mama sees you in the vicinity of those cubs, Mama has a basic simplistic recognition: When in doubt, in fact not even in doubt, treat it as a threat and remove it.

 

Jathan:

And often a lot of your bullies and your toxic behaviors are rooted in a kind of Mama Grizzly, “You’re threatening my bear cubs,” whether they are or not, “You’re threatening my cubs. Whack.” And so, if I can get the discussion about what we can do to help the cubs grow and thrive and do better and how these people can contribute to that desirable outcome, then we have a chance. We have a shot, we have a shot.

 

Stephan:

Mm-hmm (affirmative). I think there’s an inherent competitiveness too among leaders, to want to

achieve if presented a plan that makes sense and is agreeable to them?

 

Jathan:

Yes. And that’s actually one of the beauties of the Marshall Goldsmith mini survey, okay? For those of you who may not know, but in a Marshall Goldsmith, which is what I use, system-

 

Stephan:

Marshall Goldsmith, to interrupt, it’s a stakeholder centered approach. So yeah, go on. Carry on, explain it?

 

Jathan:

Go ahead, Stephan, if you want to give a little background. But anyway, the point about it is, there are stakeholders; often the person’s direct reports and others. And at the end of a certain period of time, they’re going to get an anonymous third party administered survey. And it’s going to say, “This person’s goal… ” Let’s say for instance, [inaudible 00:17:31], that’s been perceived as a toxic leader. His goal is to lead with trust and respect. That’s what his goal is. Okay? Now, there’s maybe some skepticism with the stakeholders, but we’ve been working at it. A mini survey will come out to those stakeholders, and they’re going to be asked the following question: Not, “How has he been over the last 10 years,” or whatever. It’s, “His goal began on this date. It’s now been X months over this period of time. What progress has she or he made toward that goal?”

 

Jathan:

And the stakeholders will answer that question numerically. If they put down a zero, it means, “Well, he didn’t get better, he didn’t get worse.” If they put down a plus one, it means, “She got better. There’s still room to grow.” A two means, “Wow, she’s done beyond expectations.” And then three, which is the top of the scale, means, “Oh my gosh. This person is the leader of this behavior in the entire organization.” And it goes in reverse: Minus one, “Lost ground,” minus two, “This is very scary,” and minus three, “We got to run for the hills.”

 

Stephan:

In what timeframe?

 

Jathan:

You know, it varies on the engagement. I’ve had it from three months probably the shortest, 12 months more at the other end, and points in between. But usually you agree on that as part of the action plan. And the question really is, if this leader commits to this action plan, commits to this goal, and commits to the specific written behaviors that the person will be laid out and held accountable to and holds themselves accountable to, when should that perception change? So if these five people perceive you, if I’m talking to my coach, as a bully, as a source of fear and intimidation, if we follow this plan, by when, if it’s successful, should that perception have changed?

 

Jathan:

And I generally say, the most ambitious is three months. It can happen. But I also say we might do a survey in three months and if there’s still work to be done, clearly the effort’s being made, we’ll stay with it. If the perception hasn’t changed after six months, then I’ve got real issues as to whether it’s ever going to work. Either because the leader is not truly committed to behavioral change, or because the hole is just so deep it’s impossible to climb out of. Although I’ll say on that last one, that’s an assumption a lot of people make, and it’s almost always wrong. People like to root for a reformed sinner; that’s one of the things these toxic leaders have going for them. So there’s a little reservoir of potential goodness that can get tapped, even among people whose lives have been made miserable by that leader.

 

Stephan:

Yeah. I think a point to add to that, Jathan, is that with the stakeholder approach; the Marshall

Goldsmith approach that you use, you’re not just surveying the stakeholders after say four months or five months of coaching. That’s not the only time that the stakeholder is being asked for their feedback. They’re being consulted every month by that leader, and that leader is saying, “How am I doing? Please give me feedback. How am I doing?” And so that demonstrates, A, that they care, and B, ideally that they’re listening and they’re doing something about it. So that helps, I believe, change perception as well. And that itself is a behavior change that the coachee is undergoing, and so it’s not just a bunch of magic happening behind a closed door between coach and coachee, and suddenly perceptions are going to change, no. That perception is being changed slowly over time through continuous communication and dialogue. Correct?

 

Jathan:

You’re spot on. Absolutely. In fact, the point you make, I think is so critical. This is what I do. I’m going to start an engagement, okay. After I do the 360 assessment, we get together, we work out the goal, we work out the initial behavioral steps, we get the feed forward, all those different terms. We now have a written action plan. Then I say, “Okay, who are the stakeholders? I want their names specifically.” Then I have… And people do it differently. And I do it differently sometimes, but here’s the key: The leader goes to each of those stakeholders… My method is separate one-on-ones, some people do it as a group. But each stakeholder is told, asked actually, to participate, and told that they will be checking in on a 30-day or approximately 30-day basis. Here’s the thing. I say, “If we’re going to work together coach-coachee,” I say, “I want to know the dates that you enrolled each of your stakeholders, and I want to know that you’ve marked your calendar. Because I’m going to mark my calendar too. And approximately 30 days from now I’m going to be asking you, ‘Have you had your stakeholder check-ins?’ And if you haven’t, I’ll be waiting to hear your explanation.”

 

Jathan:

So that’s just an underscore how that is, that I’m not going to let them slide on that. Because you’re right, it is an indispensable element in success. They might get from a zero to a one on their own, but if they’re doing those check-ins, what behavior that would be measured as a one by that stakeholder is probably going to be measured as a two at least, because of the check-in process. So thank you for bringing that up; that is a fundamental point.

 

Stephan:

Yeah. Now I think another significant advantage or benefit to stakeholder coaching, the Marshall

Goldsmith model… And you’ve glossed over it very quickly. You said you interview stakeholders, you come up with a behavior goal, and the example you gave is to treat people with trust and respect, I believe it was, and then you come up with an action plan. So tell me what might be included in the action plan? Describe that for people so they have a better understanding.

 

Jathan:

Okay. Well I’d have to make sure I get the names out, I could almost show you one. So instead I’ll create a visual picture. So picture a document that has a date on it. That’s the date as of which you commit to this plan. And then in the far left column, the title is Goal. That’s the overall goal: Delegate more effectively, lead with trust and respect, handle confrontations constructively. Whatever it is, that’s your goal. We don’t leave it there. Then you move into the next column adjacent to it, which is where you’re going to question yourself every day and mark yourself every day on, “Did I appropriately do the following?” And these will be very specific observable behaviors. An example might be, “Did I solicit others’ opinions before expressing my own?” That would be an example. “Did I give positive recognition to someone for an action idea or contribution they made? Yes or no?” Did you do it? And it could also be referring. “In a conversation, did I confirm with the person their view before expressing mine?” So in other words, these are designed to be observable behaviors. “Did you do it? Did you not do it?” So that the leader can assess themselves, the coach can assess them, I’ll sometimes be a fly on the wall, but also the stakeholders can. Because there’s also this… People have blind spots, we all do. I talk about three realities. There’s the reality of what we perceive we do, there’s the reality of what we do, and they’re often different. And I have brought wry smiles to lots of clients who are, “So what did you just do?” And I say, “Well let me tell you exactly, because I was there,” or even I recorded it. And they’re, “Really?” So you have a gap often between what you perceive you do and what you do. There’s a third one, which is what they perceive, which could also vary from what actually you did and what you perceived you did. And so the coaching engagement, if it’s successful, collapses those three realities. And so those are the things we work at. And going back to what you said, a lot of these difficult people are result-oriented and they’re driven, and that’s a new game. Can we collapse the three realities? “You think you behave in a way that’s wonderful; you behave in a way that’s iffy. That’s the reality. And they perceive you as being a total loss cause jerk. Can we bring those together, maybe closer to what you perceive.” So we now have a goal, and then we have a game plan. And that’s your action.

 

Stephan:

Yeah. And I think that that succinctness of it is very attractive for someone who is results-oriented, driven. It’s not just airy-fairy foofy stuff like, “Okay, how am I supposed to change my behavior? I don’t even know what I’m supposed to do differently.” This gives you a very clear roadmap of what you could be doing differently.

 

Jathan:

Yes.

 

Stephan:

Yeah. I think the Marshall Goldsmith model fits perfectly for these kinds of very challenging behavior changes. If I can summarize or bring back our whole conversation full circle, the original people who come to us, they have challenging leaders. I think you have a very unique skill set having been a lawyer; you’ve dealt with many challenging individuals. But ultimately I think you do have a unique perspective, but you’re really facilitating change through the model of stakeholder coaching. So it’s a process that’s proven, that’s been used thousands of times, and it’s your guide. That’s the thing that’s helping you really produce the change within individuals. Is that fair to say, Jathan? I don’t want to take away from your unique talents and skills as a coach, that framework really helps.

 

Jathan:

Well, I think what it was… I’ve been doing this work in this space as a coach, and then also as an organization development consultant, because I also work with organizations too, where the organization is the client as opposed to the specific person I’m coaching. What Marshall Goldsmith stakeholder centered coaching did for me, was it gave me the perfect vehicle for what I was doing. So whatever success level I was achieving before core principles of stakeholder centered coaching, just moved it up. It’s like a baseball player and you discover a new posture at the plate, and all of a sudden your averages in your slugging percentage and things just start to change. And by the way, I’ll say, also and not just when I’m doing one-on-one coaching, I incorporate Goldsmith principles in all the work I do. All the work I do. I work with HR on converting HR from compliance cop to culture coach. Goldsmith principles are built into that work. I work with C-suites on creating great workplace cultures, Goldsmith principles are built into that work. So it was for me professionally, the rocket fuel.

 

Stephan:

Yeah. And for us as an organization, because we pride ourselves on always making the right connection between the issue or problem that the organization is facing and the right coaching solution, and we draw from a large pool of coaches. We have many coaches with different training and specializations. And we found the exact same thing. We were employing coaches to deal with toxic or abrasive leaders, and the Marshall Goldsmith process seems to just fit it hand to glove. It’s just a great… We found that leveling up with our clients as well. And so we put a lot of faith into it, a lot of trust into it. You still have to have the right coach because in my experience, again, like I said earlier at the beginning of this call, we’ve spoken to hundreds and hundreds of coaches, literally. And I would say most of them wouldn’t touch any of the most challenging cases that we face with a hundred foot pole. Whereas Jathan, you go in there just ready to go, ready to rock, and you embrace it.

 

Jathan:

Well this probably sounds strange, and maybe it suggests I’m strange. I’m sure my wife would agree. Sometimes a big super-ego, whatever leader, often I’ve been brought in after they intimidated the coach that they had. And so they basically manipulated the whole coaching relationship into coaching their narrative. And that’s their way; they subdue. And occasionally that’s tried on me, and I just find it amusing. I just found, “Okay. So you’re going to intimidate me. So that also could be why I was sort of like a coach of the last resort, because you know, “Really? Okay. Okay. Do you know how many people like you I cross-examined, including the ones that ended up bankrupt? But go ahead, go ahead, intimidate me.” So anyway, sorry for that excursion, but it is true. And in fact, by now they usually know about me enough that they don’t even try. But there was a transitional period, and I always just found it amusing.

 

Stephan:

Yeah. Yeah. And that’s not to say you don’t see the possibilities in them, right? You’re not seeing them as a villain, a bad guy or girl? Because I think there’s almost an equal number of women and men leaders who are abrasive and toxic. Maybe you have different data than us, but that’s definitely what we see.

 

Jathan:

I’ve certainly encountered and dealt with women that were abrasive and intimidating, and fear creating. And also that had developed what they thought were necessary; go back to Mama Grizzly. So even when I started an engagement with somebody that I thought was trying to manipulate or intimidate me, I didn’t walk away. I just called it. And I said, “And my sense is, you’re not reserving this behavior for me, that this is a, right, wrong or indifferent, a kind of coping strategy that you’ve developed, where you’re in an uncertain situation and you want to control as many of the variables you can control, and those include the human beings that are around you. So you’re nervous about this coaching engagement and where it might lead, so your default response is to control the coach; do whatever means necessary: Fear, intimidation, deceit, manipulation. You want to control it. So if we’re going to work well together, if we’re successful, you’re going to learn there are other and better ways.” “That in fact, if instead of producing certain behaviors from me that you want because ‘I’m afraid or I’m intimidated or I’m deceived,’ what if you got my genuine desire to help you succeed? What if you commanded not just what you can command, ‘I have to show up at work on time,’ what if you got that discretionary energy you can command. What if when I’m not around you, I’m thinking about ways to help you be successful. What do you think? Now, if I’m afraid of you, am I going to think that? Am I going to be worrying about that? And if I see you headed in a path that’s going to be bad for you, am I going to call that out? But what if I genuinely care about you, and feel you care about me? What changes happen and what results happen?” So I never go into engagement saying, “There’s no way.” And even if they misbehave early in on the process, I don’t immediately pull the plug. I’ll call it, and if necessary I’ll pull the plug, but before then we’re going to have a candid conversation.

 

Stephan:

Mm-hmm (affirmative). Great. So for an individual who has a toxic leadership issue in their organization; they’re looking for coaching, they’re not even sure coaching is going to work. What are your final thoughts? Any last pieces of advice?

 

Jathan:

Yes. It would be this. Let’s say I’m the client. Let’s say I’m the owner; I’m the CEO or whatever. And let’s say you are the prospective coach. In addition to getting a sense of your abilities and your experience, and in addition to having confidence in you as a professional coach, there’s one thing I’m going to want to know from you, which is, if there’s a point where this coaching engagement is feudal or even potentially counterproductive, even if it’s not in your economic interest to end it, you will come to me and you’ll talk to me. And you’ll say, “You know what Jathan? I think we need to maybe pull the plug on this.” I want to know that if in your mind and your heart, that you say, “You know what? This is not healthy and it’s not going in a healthy way. And even though I was engaged for 12 months,” or whatever it is, “I think we need to revisit it.” I just want to know that you’ll do that. That would be-

 

Stephan:

That’s really good.

 

Jathan:

That would be a conversation as the person who’s potentially footing the bill and responsible overall; the sponsor as it’s called. I’d want to know that in a coach. One way is to have that put down on a table and say, “What happens?” Because that’s something I put in because I want the ability to leave. I want the ability to pull the plug, and the fact that it costs me money, so what? No long term. And so that’s something that I want reciprocally. I think sometimes, unfortunately, if you don’t have that conversation and there isn’t that clarity, the coach will continue after a point where a much stronger intervention needs to happen.

 

Stephan:

Yeah. Great point, and a great way to end. Jathan, thank you for your time. Thank you for all your input and your stories. This has been really helpful. And if you’re interested in getting some coaching for anybody in your organization, give Noomii a call. We can put the right coach on the job, and if this leader that you have is one of the most challenging